Idolatry in the Church of God? How can that be?
Well, it exists, my friends. It isn’t all that hard to find, either. Sooner or later, you trip up on someone’s sacred cow, and that is when it all goes downhill.
It’s actually not that hard to tell when it occurs, either. Ask for a Scripture. If you don’t agree with their interpretation, then you’ll get attacked as “brain-washed”, “arrogant” or the favorite “Laodicean” instead of pointing out from the Bible where you are wrong.
What is odd is that paganism is probably one of the least of the problems within the COG organizations.
Anything can be an idol. In addition, something may be an idol to one but not another. Therefore, I speak in generalities. However, from what I’ve observed, these are the top idolatries that need to be repented of within the claimed Churches of God:
1. Government. This is a biggie. I’ll admit that I used to wonder why David Havir wrote so often about this in The Journal News of the Churches of God, but I have since learned just how big of an idol this one is to some people. Instead of worshipping the Governor, an idol is made out of a form of government. This may be anything from bylaws on stone tablets from Mt Indianapolis to the more traditional one-man rule.
2. Herbert W Armstrong. This one is actually government’s younger, craftier brother and involves a real slight of hand. Once you are worshipping a man, it becomes very easy to claim the “mantle” or the “baton” has been passed to your particular leader, so now you must follow him. The emphasis becomes upon the leader instead of Christ. He must continually update his resume with biblical-sounding titles like “apostle”, “Elijah”, etc., in order to continually press the point.
3. Calendar. This is an odd one that pops up from time to time. Did God really intend for people to spend a lot of money on jet fuel to go look at barley in Israel? Did God not foresee a time such as ours where calendars would be printed years ahead of time? The main problem with this one is that it undermines the real intent of the holy days because people are assembling at different times.
4. Date Setting. Even odder is the penchant for a few to still set dates for Christ’s return. I sometimes think we haven’t learned anything at all. When will Christ return? Three and one-half years after the armies surround Jerusalem and stop physical sacrifices. When will that be? I don’t know, you don’t know, and Ronald Weinland certainly doesn’t know.
5. Legalism. I debated what to call this one, but legalism is probably most appropriate. The Pharisees were guilty of legalism. The problem wasn’t that they were keeping God’s Law in such a severe degree. The problem was that they added their own restrictions to the Law and ended up breaking the intent of God’s Law by doing so. This almost always involves making a mountain out of molehill (or, straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel). Ask someone to point out a particular item in Scripture, and you’ll often get some vague verses and hand waving but nothing really satisfying as an answer. By the same token, ask why something else isn’t being done, and you’ll get some vague reasoning trying to explain it away. It really does work both ways.
Each of us can add more, I’m sure. Each of us has our own particular struggles as well. The question is whether or not each of us will examine ourselves now and repent before Passover.
John, i certainly hope that you do not THIS comment as an arguement, because that is not the entent. But i would like to just ask you if you think that trying to cling to the government as it was restored for the COG under HWA is idolatry, beings you have linked government and HWA together?
I know that there are many today who think there are a multiple of governing types for the COG and so whatever they come up with that can have a few Scriptures semingly support is considered a Bible based governance.
Is it possible that a person can be committing idolatry because they are unwilling to accept anything other than what they themselves feel is right? kind-of- like idolizing your own understanding as being the best?
Anony Jon
Thank you for commenting, Anony Jon.
I will repeat that anything can be an idol. The list can go on forever. There are far too many things that can be placed between us and God.
People do often link HWA and government together, so they are difficult to separate out. However, I get the impression that there are also some in UCG that are paying an inordinate amount of attention to a form of government (or at least details of it) as well, so it would appear they don't necessarily have to be linked.
Frankly, I'm not all that sure that some haven't turned over their entire personal responsibility to the church. It's one thing to submit entirely to God, to read and believe what He says, but it is another to turn it over to the interpretation of mere men.
For some older members who were around in WCG, it could be difficult to separate out HWA and government. After all, he really was in charge.
Even then, though, did he not have flatterers trying to get his attention and trying to exalt him? Sometimes he just had to plainly say he wasn't this or that title that someone was trying to foist upon him. There sometimes was idolatry going on then too, but at least he himself could quash it on occasion.
What is interesting is even his views on church governance shifted over time. Some say he was right the first time. Some say he was right towards the end. This is an example of building on sand. Sand shifts, while rocks do not.
HWA's views need to be held up to the same light as mine, yours or anyone else's. Jesus said to build on the rock — His teachings — instead of sand (Mt 7:24-27).
Whenever Jesus' disciples argued over "who would be the greatest", what were they arguing about? Who would be in charge. Who would govern. The argument really isn't new.
The remaining question is if we are looking at Jesus' answer or not. If we are looking at MOA, bylaws or other documents of men, we could easily miss it. His answer goes against the grain:
" 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
" 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
" 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
~ Mt 18:2-4
Perhaps one of the most interesting answers, though:
" 46Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
" 47And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
" 48And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
" 49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
" 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."
~ Lk 9:46-50
"Is it possible that a person can be committing idolatry because they are unwilling to accept anything other than what they themselves feel is right? kind-of- like idolizing your own understanding as being the best?
People have a very deep connection between what they believe to be true and their own salvation. When something is mentioned that doesn't sit right with their view, various reactions can occur.
When it comes to the "my view is best or superior" it involves how we use knowledge. IMO when words are abused, it can have more to do with pride and a lack of humility. Albeit idols can have a very sneaky way of working their way into things.
"Now as touching things offered to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies. And if any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know." (1 Cor 8:1-2)
I believe a person can come to a better understanding of how to use and communicate knowledge by finding out and being humble enough to discern what they don't know.
Seems to me Christ reveals the idolatry in His statement of the condition of the church. The twin idols of self-sufficiency and self-righteousness. Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Norbert wrote: "People have a very deep connection between what they believe to be true and their own salvation."
On the positive side of that statement is faith. The negative, it would seem, would be deception.
To tack onto what you said about pride, that is also a form of idolatry, is it not?
Regarding date setting/timeframes and trying to track world events that lead to actual prophecy fulfillment, I wonder why we cannot simply accept Christ's very plain teaching in the Olivet Prophecy to His disciples. Here is just one verse that supports this truth:
Matt: 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
We simply cannot know the date or timeframe for the start of the actual fulfillment of end time prophetic events. HWA erred in this and I hope this thinking can be eliminated from the COG.
Anonymous wrote: "Seems to me Christ reveals the idolatry in His statement of the condition of the church."
True, but why just the one statement? Consider, if you will, these other statements:
"thou hast left thy first love."
"I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."
"the doctrine of Balaam … to eat things sacrificed unto idols…."
"that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, … to eat things sacrificed unto idols."
"…the synagogue of Satan…"
Whether we consider these eras or not, it is evident that idolatry has been in the Church of God through the ages. Even Philadelphia is warned against "the synagogue of Satan". The synagogue of Satan isn't going to announce itself as such. It will camouflage itself to appear like a Church of God!
What idols do each of us have stashed away in our hearts? This is why we must examine ourselves each year.
You know, there is a statement that sticks out to me in the midst of Jacob's travels. After everything he had gone through with Laban and Esau, you would assume that he had nothing left to strip away, but that simply is not the case.
After the defilement of Dinah and the resultant taking of revenge upon the house of Hamor, Ge 35:1-2 has a rather odd statement for the household that God was working with. In v 4, we see them burying idols under an oak tree.
We all need to consider these things prior to Passover.
The idolatry spoke of in the Bible can be summed up very easy, anything or anyone that we put before God is idolatry. We may not bow down to graven images as the Israelite did but we can be just as guilty of idolatry in our modern age by the way we use our time, talents and treasures.
The COG is very guilty of the idolatry of Armstrong and his teachings. When anyone refuses to question any persons teachings and will basically do anything they say because they believe he alone has a divine revelation, that is idolatry of a person. Only Jesus can fill that bill and Armstrong proved he was no Jesus by his consistent failed prophecies, in fact the Bible calls that a false prophet.
Found it interesting that you choose those "top" idolatries over the one that are directly mentioned in the bible and in Rev. specifically. (But you did state later in a response.) Christ's examinations of the condition of the churches are a much better guage of where the churches idolatry lay. The "top" list has a tone of finger pointing and accusing rather than self-examination.
Repentance isn't a popular message, is it? No, people would rather listen to "smooth things". Maybe that is why almost every generation has killed the messenger, including the OT prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles, not to mention the martyrdom that has occurred since.
We simply cannot know the date or timeframe for the start of the actual fulfillment of end time prophetic events. HWA erred in this and I hope this thinking can be eliminated from the COG.
From what I remember of HWA mindset as it was once described, he was always in the "gun lap" as a matter of motivating himself each and every day. IIRC it was Dr. Hoeh that mentioned that. Hence in his 50 years or thereabouts of his preaching, Christ's return was always around 5-10 years in the future. He had a sense of urgency.
But here's the thing and I partly agree with you. Authoritively claiming Christ will return in 5-10 years could create a problem in the 11th year of attending services. And it most certainly will create a problem if a person hasn't learned anything in the meantime.
However it could also be said it would be disengenious to not include such a time frame for Christ's return for the exact same reason that it should be excluded. "We simply cannot know the date or timeframe for the start of the actual fulfillment of end time prophetic events."
I believe it can be used as an effective subject for all the public to hear in this present world's state of political events. "With many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!”." (Acts 2:40)
The problematic thing is teaching the whole word of God and ignoring what can happen in the 11th year.
To tack onto what you said about pride, that is also a form of idolatry, is it not?
One Anyonymous defined it very well, "The idolatry spoke of in the Bible can be summed up very easy, anything or anyone that we put before God is idolatry. We may not bow down to graven images as the Israelite did but we can be just as guilty of idolatry in our modern age by the way we use our time, talents and treasures"
I would only say that it can be simplier to identify such things as becoming aware of pride and a lack in humility before a person finally sees how an idol could be involved.
Idolatry is a pervasive problem within the body of Christ. Anything that replaces God and Christ as the focus of our attention is idolatry. We all are in need of repentance as we fight the battles of our own reasoning and nature, the plight of being human and being "earthbound" because we're human, and the tendency to exalt what our human senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) perceive over what God's spirit in us can perceive.
This is our fight, our battle, our potential Waterloo (if we are not clinging to God – read Deuteronomy and Judges to see the juxtaposition) for the duration of our human lives. Unless we are constantly and consistently willing and actively allowing God to drive, we will always fall short of God's command and standard. It's not easy. It's not natural. But it is absolutely necessary.
@John ""I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."
SYNAGOGUE "assembly"); a company dominated by the power and activity of Satan,
(from Vine's Expository)
So in all actuality these are not IN the COG they are only "among" the COG as counterfiets and liars. (This is quite scary actually when you think about it.)
There is a difference that at least puts the true COG in a little better light concerning this–at least. Too bad about all the other things. Paul even indicates that Covetousness is also Idolatry of the thing one covets–breaking both these commandments, along the others.
Anony Jon
Anony Jon wrote: "So in all actuality these are not IN the COG they are only 'among' the COG as counterfiets and liars."
I wasn't clear enough about that. Thanks for restating it.
"Paul even indicates that Covetousness is also Idolatry of the thing one covets–breaking both these commandments, along the others."
Not only that, but covetousness is very often the motivation behind other sins. It can cause someone to lie, cheat or steal in order to gain the coveted thing. Behind many murders is someone wanting what the other person possesses (like Ahab's coveting a vineyard for a Biblical example).
I sometimes wonder what Paul would have said of our day and time, at least about the US. The society not only expects but fosters covetousness. It is one of the (if not the) pillar of materialism. Someone is always there (or, so it seems) to entice you that you "deserve" this, that or the other. We as a society seem to be well-conditioned to desiring things we don't even need, I believe. It can rub off on Christians so easily because it is all around us and to some people even seems "normal".
I know I really have to force myself to stop and think at times as to whether or not something is truly a "need" verses a "want". I don't think working in technology helps, either. It makes the line even trickier to navigate, if you ask me.
Again I ask, what about outright idolatry? Is it "right" to worship God on the Sabbath in "Christian" buildings with steeples or crosses on top? Your thoughts please?
UCG Member
To be direct, NO it is not right nor of faith, is my thoughts. God always provides for the diligent. I remember this exact same thing a few years back–also in UCG where the minister just compromised and went to a methodist church for a meeting room instead of being diligent and sending out some scouts to find a place. the brethren finally spoke up and said they would not meet there anymore, before he went elsewhere. it had a steeple, cross and sundial! THESE ARE PAGAN IDOLS! This minister recently became a council member before resigning, and now he is with COGWa! Go figure.
Jane
"Again I ask, what about outright idolatry? Is it "right" to worship God on the Sabbath in "Christian" buildings with steeples or crosses on top? Your thoughts please?
UCG Member
For that a person would have to begin to know the difference between a physical idol and that of spiritual ones.
1Cor 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."
However the verses after also show some people can still have a problem physical idols. IMO Mankind hasn't changed all that much in the 21st century.
@UCG Member: Like Jane, I've seen this first-hand. In all reality, the steeple is outside and not much of a distraction (with all the trees, though, I didn't even think of it for a while). However, what goes on inside is pretty hard to ignore. It is just asking for trouble, and trouble it becomes sooner or later, one way or the other.
For example, the one where UCG was meeting had no less than five Christmas trees scattered throughout the building. While I'm not approving of pictures of Jesus or crosses, there were more trees than both of the other put together. Now, what does that tell you about their beliefs?
No, darkness and light just don't get along well together (2Co 6:14, et al).
God judges the heart not your surroundings. When you go into a building with symbols that offend you are you there to worship those symbols which no longer have the meaning they had for the pagans? Do you allow your children to play with dolls? they were created for voodoo practices. Do you throw rice at weddings? that was a pagan practice for fertility. The list could go on and on. So are you going to research every practice you have in life to make sure it has no history of paganism attached? Or are you going to do what God said and examine your own heart and make sure no malice is found or spend your time worrying about what people did in the past.
However, if an organization is offended by those symbols then they are being hypocritical for renting those places for their worship and more than likely making fun of and feeling very self righteous about how they don't believe in such things.
Humans have a heart problem not a symbol problem!
Anonymous wrote: "However, if an organization is offended by those symbols then they are being hypocritical for renting those places for their worship and more than likely making fun of and feeling very self righteous about how they don't believe in such things."
Maybe. Or, they might be human and fooled themselves into thinking they could handle the situation until it created enough tension to change the situation.
All I'm saying is that it is a bad idea. It will cause tension, even if the motives start out good.
How many in the Old T–the good kings and the righteous— tore down, burned and destroyed every pagan idol? Did not God tell Israel to do this when entering the promised land? Did He not say "do not worship me as the heathens worship their gods"
Why would it be okay for Spiritual Israel to just ignore these things as if they did not exist?
Personally, I think it is a COMPROMISE if the COG meets under a steeple or sundisk or cross.
But that is just my opinion based on what I see in the Bible.
Anony Jon
Since the original wedding ring was in the shape of and considered a symbol of the eternal serpent and can be traced back to Babylon and heathen nations, do you think it should also be avoided and if not why? It's closer than a Christmas tree, steeple or cross.
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
So, what does the command about pagan practices say? What is the context? What specifically was forbidden?
Anonymous asked; do you think it (Wedding ring)should also be avoided and if not why?
Take a concordance and do a search on rings–God had them made for the ark–Abraham's servant had them to give to Rebekah and family–Pharoah gave his signet ring to Joseph, etc
I have to wonder if it were too much of a pagan symbol or representing idolatry, if God would have even used it? As John pointed out, anything can become an idol but it is obvious that some things are for idol worship. I personally think the Christmas tree is an idol in itself–but i do not look at every evergreen i see as a Christmas tree or an idol.
Anony Jon
Anonymous, the pagans would have used the ring on the finger for their pagan worship practices after the things you mentioned.
I think you made my point anything can become an idol, it's all in how and why your using it. I don't know of anyone who bows down and worships the Christmas tree or thinks it has some kind of magical power, and in fact the early Christians used because it was the only thing green in the dead of winter, to them it represented life like Jesus represents life to a dying world.
Because there are people who use things in the wrong manner does not make that thing in it's self wrong or evil, the people using it in the wrong way have the problem.
Interesting how Anony Jon and I both pointed to Scriptures to make our points, though.
Have a great Sabbath, everyone!
….it had a steeple, cross and sundial! THESE ARE PAGAN IDOLS!
A sundial is an idol?!
Someone needs to explain that one to me. I've never heard that before.
How did they figure the time of Christ's crucifixion mentioned in the New Testament without one? Much less the "hour of prayer" which early apostles marked in Acts 3?
But back on thread: I think #5 remains a plank in the eye of many in COG groups. It could involve eating in restaurants on Sabbath, music styles during services (a huge debate is raging on a COG7 forum about that), eating whole-wheat bread or many other things.
I think I've written here before the statement by a UCG Pastor during a sermon: "God loves rules." I don't recall him saying God's love should rule.
Richard, I think it was Jane who made that statement, however she may have just made a slip in wording because the "sundial" and a sundisk are two different things. it is the sundisk that is simply represented by a circle around the middle or above a cross. sometimes these are seen placed at the top of a steeple, and I have seen them, as I am sure you have–but a sundial is not a sundisk.
BTW–a halo is also nothing more than a symbol anciently known as the sundisk. some symbols are more specific than others, even if they are representing the same thing.
Anony Jon