Terrorism. Middle East unrest. Earthquakes. Corruption in high places. The world news is filled with stories like these, and they seem to be escalating. What will it take to stop them?
Herbert W Armstrong used to use the phrase “a strong arm from somewhere” to describe what was needed to turn this world around. Of course, he was referring to the return of Jesus Christ to put down the escalating rebellion before the armies of this world blow it up, literally. The study of the Book of Judges points to the inability of carnal man to control himself and the history of ancient Israel points out that ungodly leaders don’t exert the controls necessary to contain evil. Jesus will provide that external and righteous control – finally.
However, Satan always has a counterfeit. Mankind, on the other hand, is always willing to believe he can solve his own problems. Satan builds upon this lie and tempts mankind to set up governments and systems that oppress other people.
I have written post-9/11 about how fear will cause people to willingly give up their freedoms for safety. The continued tightening of controls at airports is a minor example. Privacy concerns are only voiced by a few, while the others believe what they are told about it all making them safer. The truth is that until people change their nature, the threat is always there and creatively evil people will find loopholes to get around security. Yet, what will people rely upon?
History is full of examples of rulers coming to power and exerting excessive controls upon people. How is it that they come to power? Who backs them? You ever really think about it? If the masses didn’t believe in the leader, then either it would fall apart if they quit following or the leader would be forced to exert yet even more control. We have seen examples of these in history as well. Revolutions, failed or otherwise, are also part of our history. The recent ouster of President Hosni Mubarak is mild compared to some of the bloody revolutions of the past.
Yet, unrest, terrorism in some form, earthquakes and corruption are going to continue. People will get tired of this and want solutions. People talk about one-world governments, global economies, world courts and international standards. The one-world government is coming, but it won’t be what people expect.
It will seem like a good idea. It will seem like the solution. The only thing is that nothing mankind does lasts forever. Even the “good” solutions turn ugly!
Someone will see all that power and crave to be at the top. Someone will want it and pursue it. That person will eventually literally declare himself to be “god”. He will be charismatic and charming. He will appeal to the masses. And people will follow him!
If you don’t grow close to God, you too can be deceived by the system that has been in place since Babylon.
Of course, it will turn out that this strong leader is just a man and not a god. His system will begin to fall apart. The relative peace that endured for a while will turn into the largest war ever since the beginning of mankind. It will be a war so full of carnage and emotion that only Jesus Christ will be able to stop it. He will stop it, but it will have to be by force.
The difference is that Jesus’ reign will not fall apart. Once people start living the correct way, they will see what has been wrong all along. They will see that their very nature needs to change from the inside out. They will see that without God’s Holy Spirit, mankind is incomplete. They will see that the only way to peace for all is to submit to God.
The irony is that through this strong arm tactic, Jesus will actually bring freedom to mankind. Removing evil and wickedness from the world means removing the cause of all suffering. It means people, individuals and nations alike, will finally be able to reach their God-given potential.
"Someone will see all that (supposed) power and crave to be at the top. Someone will want it and pursue it. That person will eventually literally declare himself to be “god”. He will be charismatic and charming. He will appeal to the masses. And people will follow him!"
About that, i just have one question. are you talking about the coming false prophet or several that head up COG groups today?
Isn't that pretty much what happened in UCG, plus the many other groups that have a dictitorial leadership–failing to follow the revealed biblical pattern of governing as it will be done in the kingdom.
Jim
Anonymous Jim wrote: "are you talking about the coming false prophet or several that head up COG groups today?"
I was referring to the Beast, actually. I believe the teaching that 2Th 2 refers to the False Prophet is incorrect. The False Prophet won't declare himself "god" because he causes everyone to worship the Beast. However, I don't consider that clear enough to argue over, either.
As far as the heads of the COGs, I wasn't referring to them. Of course, if the shoe fits….
"Isn't that pretty much what happened in UCG, plus the many other groups that have a dictitorial leadership–failing to follow the revealed biblical pattern of governing as it will be done in the kingdom."
That leads to me wondering what you mean:
1. I've heard this from other quarters, so since you brought it up, I also have a question: How can COGWA be judged on its form of governance when that hasn't even been officially established yet? What is the source of this supposed "fact"?
2. Usually, when someone says the "biblical pattern of governing", they are referring to a dictatorship, but you seem to be saying something completely different. Now, I haven't seen a specific commandment of how God's people should organize, so perhaps you can shed light on what you mean.
Well, i guess i was a little brief, so i will go a little further. You said; "I was referring to the Beast, actually. I believe the teaching that 2Th 2 refers to the False Prophet is incorrect." maybe you could explain this one for me–as it certainly seems that Rev.13 records a second beast–that actually IS the man of sin and the false prophet. He also cause all to worship the Image of the Beast (which is the Catholic church) and recieve the mark–but if you understand that the false prophet is the pope or one who sits in that office–then you will understand that he has already exalted himself as a god and is even refered to as "the holy father" which is only a title the Father God should have.
In your point #1–I do not recall mentioning this group nor did i say anything about any "supposed facts". That was just a comment that made no reference to COGWA–unless of course YOU want to put them in that same category.
point #2 when I refer to anything as being the biblical pattern of governing as it will be done in the kingdom–i mean exactly that. that government will obviously be from the top down–is NOT DICTITORIAL –and has different levels of authority. any honest student of Christ and the bible can see that is the way the COG should be functioning now, as well, beings Christ does not change and is the head of the true Church. Paul said that he and others was given AUTHORITY as an apostle for the building up of the churches under his care and that is also recorded by him in Eph.4:11.
No offense meant by this but if you have not seen this as such, then maybe you need to dig a little deeper–UCG seems to have rejected this from the git-go. As you aptly pointed out I cannot know what this new group is going to do because they have not yet decided.
Jim
Actually, I do consider myself an "honest student of Christ", and therefore, I want to know where it says, "Thou shalt have one man in charge."
The Catholic Church is "top down". Is that what we should be imitating?
I see that even in the Church of God, some will follow the Beast because they are more preoccupied with idolatrous, preconceived un-Biblical notions of government than of following God.
I 100% concur that 2Thess2 is talking about the Beast. Simple proof: Revelation clearly shows FP is not worshipped, but directs worship to Beast. Case closed. Beast is the antichrist- the world leader/messiah worshipped instead of JC who will shortly come thereafter to displace him. An interesting added thought is looking at the FP as a counterfeit of Elijah the prophet. No, I don't believe Elijah is a group, but a person ala John the Baptist who was an individual person as a type of Elijah in the first fulfillment.
@Anonymous: I'll admit I've never heard of comparing the FP and Elijah before. That's something to mull over, I think.
@John “Actually, I do consider myself an "honest student of Christ", and therefore, I want to know where it says, "Thou shalt have one man in charge."
Once again sir, it does not seem that you are paying any attention to what I have said. Where did I say that government from the top down had to be “one man rule”? There were twelve apostle under Christ and others came later—but the highest rank under Christ is the office of an apostle! Christ is our Spiritual apostle today, but he appointed twelve of his disciples to be apostles, just as there were twelve elders over the tribes under Moses—which was the church in the wilderness. Collective leadership from the top down with differing positions of authority—easily verifiable by Scripture.
”The Catholic Church is "top down". Is that what we should be imitating?” I mean no offense by this but this is so typical of those in opposition to Biblical Government. Satan is behind this and also has top down government and any other kind that is not of God, but of or by the people—and today this is done by voting, which has crept into the Church–this is Laodicea. few seem to realize Satan has counterfeited himself as god—so it should be obvious his government, no matter what kind, would be palmed off as the real thing and scriptures would be twisted to present it as such. However, his government is dictatorial for the most part whereas God‘s is from love and outgoing concern (with multitude of council for humans) for the good and well being of those being governed—but it is still from the top down. It will be the same in the kingdom.
@ Anonymous “I 100% concur that 2Thess2 is talking about the Beast. Simple proof: Revelation clearly shows FP is not worshipped, but directs worship to Beast. Case closed.” If you are willing to “close case” here then it is your loss. No disrespect intended—but you simply have not studied this or you would know that it is the FP who performs the deceptions through signs and miracles—he is the lawless one and the man of sin who is thrown into the fire with the 1st beast. he is also the second beast of Rev.13—if you do not see this then you are asleep.
Jim
Jim wrote: "Where did I say that government from the top down had to be 'one man rule'?"
That invariably is what is argued, and without it, then how do you determine who was appointed? For that matter, I'm not even sure how you're supposed to tell if the "one-man" is appointed according to those who advocate that.
"There were twelve apostle under Christ and others came later—but the highest rank under Christ is the office of an apostle!"
So, are there apostles today? I truly don't see any. How we would know if there were?
"Christ is our Spiritual apostle today, but he appointed twelve of his disciples to be apostles, just as there were twelve elders over the tribes under Moses—which was the church in the wilderness."
Ignoring that there was also a priesthood in the days of Moses, you still had Moses there to appoint them. You had Christ there in the early Church to appoint them. Who appoints them today and how is that signified?
Or, could it be simply that God wants us to look at ourselves and to Him rather than relying upon fallible men and forms of government that ignore the substance?
"Collective leadership from the top down with differing positions of authority…."
And this is different than UCG how?
"this is Laodicea"
That is tiring and simply your opinion. Can you provide a Bible verse or not? While you're at it, where does it say that Laodicea doesn't believe in some form of government?
It is time to stop looking to other men for our answers. They will not account to Christ when He returns, but each of us individually. If we cannot govern ourselves, why would He allow us to govern others in the Millennium?
John, you asked this; "So, are there apostles today? I truly don't see any. How we would know if there were?" This is totaly irrelavent for the COG today. we HAD an apostle and now God is testing the COG in Laodicea as to how it will utilize what it was given–but obviously many cannot grasp that. UCG eliminated anything above an elder thereby not recognizing God ordained evangelistic authority–which there are still some of them from under HWA—Godly trained individuals train and therefore true leaders are regenerated for the COG—we do not now have to have a human apostle to still function in that system.
@Jim–to you my friend I issue a word of caution– I understand what you are saying –but if you have not already noticed, John D and many that comment here do not believe the obvious and simplicity of biblical truth. That is what you are dealing with.
Anony Jon
Anony Jon wrote: "John, you asked this; "So, are there apostles today? I truly don't see any. How we would know if there were?" This is totaly irrelavent for the COG today. we HAD an apostle and now God is testing the COG in Laodicea as to how it will utilize what it was given–but obviously many cannot grasp that."
First off, I didn't bring that up. However, since it is the highest "ran", how can it be totally irrelevant? If it truly is a rank, office or position that is needed by the Church, then where is his individual? Either it is required as part of this imaginative government or not.
"John D and many that comment here do not believe the obvious and simplicity of biblical truth."
You misspelled "unbiblical" since it is not laid out in the Bible.
The Bible is quite clear on which day is the Sabbath. The Bible is pretty clear on clean and unclean meats (except perhaps for a couple of birds that we aren't sure of the translation). The Bible is unequivocal on adultery, stealing and murder. The Bible makes no bones about idolatry and the importance of worshiping God and only God.
Obviously, these things are clear because they are the things God wants you to do or not do.
Therefore, if the form of government is so important, then why isn't it spelled out? Because, simply put, it is not that important.
What's important is Who is in charge, and that we follow Him, and that we do what He says.
Substance, not form.
God governs the willing. The rest will either become willing or eventually be destroyed.
" This is totaly irrelavent for the COG today. we HAD an apostle and now God is testing the COG in Laodicea as to how it will utilize what it was given–but obviously many cannot grasp that."
Broadly speaking the Church still has a significant amount of Apostles living today, by using the definition of an Apostle as one who has been sent.
"As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world… Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" (Jn 17:18,20)
Is there anyone today that was directly picked and sent as were the twelve Apostles and Paul?
Paul, one of those Apostles makes a statement in 1 Cor 3:10-11, "According to the grace of God which is given to me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
It's comparible to what's stated in De 13, were a man to create a work of wonder in our lifetime. When he teaches something that goes contrary to the scriptures that came beforehand. God's people are commanded, "You shall not listen to the words of that prophet" (De 13:3)
I believe the CoG today can only be dependant on the scriptures and take heed how it builds upon them, otherwise it will be no more than a building of doctrines from misguided men.
I don’t want an argument with you, I am just commenting—but you seem to be reading something into my words and then commenting back on what you have read into it. It does not seem that you have an open mind or a desire to see things as they are. (hence your sarcasm @ anony Jon; “You misspelled "unbiblical" since it is not laid out in the Bible.”
So I am going to give this one more shot. You said these things in response to Anony Jon;
“Therefore, if the form of government is so important, then why isn't it spelled out?” How many times and ways does this need to be spelled out for you before you can come to see it? It is spelled out but you are unwilling to accept it! I am not even going to mention Scripture because I have noticed you will reason around them.
”What's important is Who is in charge, and that we follow Him, and that we do what He says.”
Well said and now you need to figure out how you just are not doing that when it comes to understanding authority and rank in the Church—Godly governing from the top down. The Pharisees knew Christ was a teacher from God—they just did not want to believe or obey Him.
”Substance, not form.” This is a pretty ridicules statement—as you have to have both. Just a physical example–Have you ever tried to pour concrete without any form? You would have a blob of substance but no form and it would be useless.Put the concrete in a form and you have some very solid and with proper shape (form).
”God governs the willing. The rest will either become willing or eventually be destroyed.” Now think about this, Mr. Carmack—could it be you who is unwilling to even accept or allow yourself to see that Christ has put a type of governing in the COG that you are unwilling to be governed by because of your acceptance and desire of something else?
Jim
@Anonymous Jim: "So I am going to give this one more shot. You said these things in response to Anony Jon;
'Therefore, if the form of government is so important, then why isn't it spelled out?' How many times and ways does this need to be spelled out for you before you can come to see it? It is spelled out but you are unwilling to accept it! I am not even going to mention Scripture because I have noticed you will reason around them."
That's just it: It has not been spelled out. All of you are reading into Scripture, but you are too blind to see it. Show me a clear unambiguous statement from Jesus: "Here is how you shall govern yourselves once I am ascended."
"Well said and now you need to figure out how you just are not doing that when it comes to understanding authority and rank in the Church"
Actually, every attempt to persuade me otherwise has made me realize how shallow and ego-agrandizing the arguments for "God's government" really are. It is an idol that must be struck down.
"'Substance, not form.' This is a pretty ridicules statement—as you have to have both. Just a physical example–Have you ever tried to pour concrete without any form? You would have a blob of substance but no form and it would be useless.Put the concrete in a form and you have some very solid and with proper shape (form)."
And, we are in the cement mixer of life right now. We will be poured into the form when Christ returns. Thank you for an analogy that makes my point perfectly.
"'God governs the willing. The rest will either become willing or eventually be destroyed.' Now think about this, Mr. Carmack—could it be you who is unwilling to even accept or allow yourself to see that Christ has put a type of governing in the COG that you are unwilling to be governed by because of your acceptance and desire of something else?"
Or, could it be that this blog exists today to warn God's people of their idolatrous ways and call their hardened hearts to repentance?
Well…
could it be you who is unwilling to even accept or allow yourself to see that Christ has put a type of governing in the COG that you are unwilling to be governed by because of your acceptance and desire of something else?
John is right about, "That's just it: It has not been spelled out"
But it has been literally spelled out, "But Jesus called them to him, and said to them, You know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority on them. But so shall it not be among you: but whoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whoever of you will be the most chief, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered to, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Mk 10:42-45)
The structure of government is no where near as important as the overseeing attitude of anyone charged with the responsiblity of administrating authority among fellow believers.
It can NOT be proven that God only wants one man to be in charge of all the CoGs, that is an indefencible argument from the scriptures. That is also NOT to say there is anything wrong or unrighteous where a group of believers have acknowledged the rule of a single man amongst them to make decisions either. Scripturally that's ok too.
No one is going to deny there isn't any authority in the Church. But there seems to be a prominant dispute between some brethren about that last teaching Herbert Armstrong taught, one of those 18 truths according to him. That only one man can be in charge, otherwise it's ungodly or as some idea's would argue it, unphiladelphian.
I would gladly discuss through the scriptures anything he taught. "Don't believe me – believe your Bible – believe God!" (Herbert Armstrong)
"And, we are in the cement mixer of life right now. We will be poured into the form when Christ returns." This does not help you John, it just shows your lack of understanding.
If you are not being molded, fashioned and formed with Christian character now–you will not be "set" in the family of God as a first fruit at the return of Christ.
"Or, could it be that this blog exists today to warn God's people of their idolatrous ways and call their hardened hearts to repentance?"
This actually may reveal your inner motives—as it sounds like Gerald Flurry—keep this up and you will be claiming to be a prophet next! (oops–maybe you already did.)
Jim
Anonymous Jim wrote: "This does not help you John, it just shows your lack of understanding."
No, it shows your lack of sight. You are spiritually blind. Now, show me the Scriptures I asked for.
Here is the only Scriptures that you need to focus on right now;
Rev 3:15-17
15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
16 "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'– and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked–
(NKJ)
Once you figure out where you are–then other things might make more sense to you. You do not have an open mind–which is the same as the "need of nothing" Laodicean approach–no wonder you do not want to think about this being the era of Laodicea.
Jim
Ah, yes, the Laodicean card! What all good modern Pharisees resort to when they cannot reason from Scripture!
@John 2/27/2010 1:38
I have seen you use this before, "Ah, yes, the Laodicean card!", in your comments. It's a little distrubing, cynical, and seemingly self-righteous. Maybe I am wrong and your not really meaning to express a smug attitude. Sometimes in written word you can give the wrong impression without meaning to. I'd like to believe it is the later statement rather than what it seems to come off as.
Your comment is concerning though. As in speaking with ex-UCG and current UCG, LCG, CGG, friends there has started to be this attitude of "WE have a work to do, WE are on the right track now, WE follow Christ," therefore implying that they couldn't be Laodicean. Thankfully they have stopped calling themselves Philadelphians, which in light of recent events in UCG and other COG groups would prove them to be hypocrites. Is your automactic defense of certain discussions going to be "the Laodicean card"? I hope not. I think we got in the habit of defining our status by the titles/names of the 7 churches rather than by what God say of those who living in the last days and what their attitudes will be like. I Tim:3 No need for church names inserted, just an honest look at our attitudes as God see them. Looking to make sure we have not conformed to the current attitudes of this present evil world.
@ Norbert; first, you say this;"John is right about, "That's just it: It has not been spelled out"
Then you say this; "I would gladly discuss through the scriptures anything he taught. "Don't believe me – believe your Bible – believe God!" (Herbert Armstrong)
After reading these comments–i have a question for you. Are you saying HWA as an apostle was wrong about what he had determined in scripture about differing levels or positons of authority in the COG?
I have already guessed that John D does believe in eras–which is also what HWA taught–so what about rank in the Church?
OOPS! i meant "I have already guessed that John D does NOT believe in eras"—
Below is an extract from an article entitled “Judaism and Armstrongism (Laodiceanism?)”.
Typology suggest that Israel the Church may be 'blind' in regard to the Kingdom of God close to, or even at, the time of Christ's second coming just as Israel the Kingdom, represent by the Jews, was 'blind' in regard to the Kingdom at Christ's first coming.
This is the argument:
Judaism is based on the Old Testament while Armstrongism is based on the Old and New Testament.
Judaism has truth and error and Armstrongism has truth and error.
From the Old Testament, Israel the Kingdom was looking forward to the coming of the Messiah and His Kingdom. Israel the Kingdom was expecting to be ruling in an earthly Kingdom.
From the Old and New Testament, Israel the Church, is looking forward to the coming of the Messiah and His kingdom. Israel the Church is expecting to be ruling in an earthly Kingdom…
"A startling parallel to the Garner Ted-Herbert Armstrong tragedy – no softer word will do – can be found in the biblical story of King David and his son Absalom…" (Stanley Rader (Ahithophel), “Against the Gates of Hell,” p.107)…
The failure of the accepted/acknowledged spiritual leadership of the people in the earlier 'divided' Kingdom is a type for today. Typology suggest that Israel the Church is near their time of the prophets.
In the time of the 'Divided' Kingdom Ahab and Jezebel provide the typological types for the Beast and the false prophet. The true Jehovah-worshippers, of this time in the northern kingdom of Israel, picture God's true church while the pseudo-Jehovah-worshippers (Jeroboam's instituted worship) pictures traditional Christianity. The introduction of Baal-worship by Ahab and Jezebel types the new religious system of the Beast and false prophet, which is to supplant the true- and pseudo- church/es during the tribulation. The house and altar of Baal picture the temple of the Beast, and Ahab's "wooden image" (1 Kings 16:33) pictures the 'literal' image of the Beast – the image of the beast is a dual concept.
Some one hundred years after David's death, Elijah appears on the scene to confront the typological "beast and false prophet" of his day.
From this typology presentation of Israel the Kingdom and Israel the Church above, HWA cannot be the Elijah to come. The Elijah comes sometime after HWA's death, just as Elijah the Tishbite came some time after David's death.
(Elijah 'long' sojourn, in Zarephath of Sidon is a type for the two witnesses in Jerusalem – "the heart" of the Beast's kingdom – "Elijah is commanded to go and reside in the heart of the very land from which the Baal worship now being promoted in Israel had come" (NIVSB, note on 1 Kings 17:9)).
" Are you saying HWA as an apostle was wrong about what he had determined in scripture about differing levels or positons of authority in the COG?"
I would say the same thing he did, "don't believe me – believe your Bible – believe God!"
Was Herbert Armstrong like the 12 Apostles? Was he, "… one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time the Lord Jesus associated with us,beginning from his baptism by John until the day he was taken up from us – one of these must become a witness of his resurrection together with us." (Acts 1:21-22)
Or do people who teach and believe that Herbert Armstrong is an Apostle like those in scripture, did they also receive a vision such as Ananias' where "… the Lord said to him[them], Go your way: for he [Herbert Armstrong] is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."? (Acts 9:15-16)
And what does Ephesians 4 say about government?
Does it say, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the form and structure of Godly government."
Or does it say, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"
It's very much less about how the Church should be structurally organized into a government, it so much more about what people with gifts (Eph 4:7) of leadership should be doing.
And then there's 1Cor 12:28, "And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
Which causes several difficulties in today's Church, seeing Paul is describing the 1st century Church. It's not about, 'God will continually set first apostles, secondarily prophets and thirdly teachers as a form of government.' But Paul writes about his own verse above as, "But earnestly seek the better gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.(1Cor 12:31)
I believe as serious the subject about how a church should be or can be organized, it seems to do more to get in the way of that more excellent way.